Remove closet skeletons

[EmoGarbage404]

About the PR

I made this PR because literally every time I remember that these exists and I added them it makes me extremely pained. I think by value it's probably the worst thing that I've ever added to the game and the fact that I've never made an attempt to remove them in a real capacity kills me.

why? Why not, rather! it's fun and i love skelebones.

The fact that the original pr is literally 2 sentences should clue you in that i didn't have a fuckin' clue what I was doing, which is frankly embarrassing considering it was not that long ago.

In the good year 2026 my opinion on this design is that it's pretty much irredeemably bad and has caused more headaches than any value it has ever generated, thus I would like to see it removed.

Why / Balance

Closet skeletons are basically the progenitor for overly game-warping and aimless ghost roles. It has no allegiance, no objectives, no actual expectations and is pretty much just a blank slate that you get to spawn in as. It's basically the first (and only real remaining) "free-agent" (derogatory) role in the game.

Most of their outsized impact is due to the fact that skeletons are poorly balanced and subject to immunity from various mechanics. Their longevity is due to a (and i say this because i added it) extremely lazily coded "milk healing" ability that's basically just a knowledge check for if you have a chance to take on encounters. Beyond that they just have insane armor against basically every damage type in the game (even their blunt 'weakness' is offset by a damage reduction of 5 blunt) and thus are insanely annoying to kill.

As a game piece, their impact is pretty much equivalent to giving a random tider a deathsquad suit and telling them to do what they want. Freely toggling between any game state due to their literal vacuum of a purpose on a station, leading to the reputation of just being psycho murderers that flip on a dime. Compared to actually interesting midround roles like rat kings or derelict borgs, these are just an overly one-note design that doesn't actually offer a new experience.

As a final note, the thematics of this role are completely barren. Maybe there'd be something interesting as a halloween exclusive event, but the reality is that it's just a completely weak theming. They turn literal reanimated skeletons into a fairly generic station presence, which is just a waste of the concept. I would rather skeletons return in literally any other gameplay/admeme context that isnt just spawning somewhere and having to a random go-around beating people up.

Technical details

Removed prototype references to closet skeletons but left the spawning logic because it's fairly generic and has theoretical utility for random stuff.

Media

Requirements

• I have read and am following the Pull Request and Changelog Guidelines.
• I have added media to this PR or it does not require an in-game showcase.

Breaking changes

Removed MobSkeletonCloset and ClosetSkeleton entity prototypes.

Changelog

🆑

• remove: Closet skeletons are no longer able to spawn naturally.

[Simyon264]

Good writeup. Ideally skeletons would have objectives of some kind or be at least not a free agent, but before that happens, removing it in the meantime is best.

[slarticodefast]

Maybe turn them into a wizard spell that allows them to turn a dead player into a skeleton minion.
That way they would be a familiar with a purpose, avoiding the free agent problem.

[august-sun]

Maybe turn them into a wizard spell that allows them to turn a dead player into a skeleton minion. That way they would be a familiar with a purpose, avoiding the free agent problem.

Seems like that could be cool, but wouldn't that make Wiz a bit more broad in scope while wiz is still having that ironed out? Could see this as a standalone mid round role, maybe?

[retequizzle]

am okay with the logic/reasoning applied in the PR body

may be worth just removing them from game rules and spawn rotations so they're still spawnable by admins for shenanigans, but i'm not gonna split hairs over it (admins will just have to protoupload their skeletons instead who cares about that)

[slarticodefast]

I think the reasoning you give in the PR descriptions makes sense and it I repeatedly heard from admins how problematic the free antag status with no objectives is for skeletons.
So I approve of removing them in their current form, but since I would miss the sillyness they add to the game I talked to Keron real quick and we think making them a relic the wizard can use to turn a dead player into a skeleton would fit well thematically and would give them a purpose as a minion (although I would probably nerf them a little). So I'll cook up a quick PR for this, since this should be easy to implement.

I would ask the other maintainers to give me a day so that we then can merge both PRs at the same time.

[ArtisticRoomba]

Sounds good, thanks for the explanation.

[SlamBamActionman]

Worth noting for anyone skimming the Github thread; it only removes the ghost role and the associated gamerule. Skeleton assets and prototypes are still available for admins to spawn ingame.

[Princess-Cheeseballs]

I feel like I'm missing something here in terms of the logic behind this removal.

I don't see the issue with having midrounds of dubious allegiance to the crew and this PR specifically mentions "derelict borgs" and "rat king" as antags who are much more interesting yet also don't have objectives.

Rat King specifically stands out since it is exceptionally one note compared to skeleton and often has absolutely no round impact whatsoever.

Skeletons also don't cause that big of an issue admin wise from my observation, really the biggest issue I see is in regards to what are the limitations and expectations of what a free agent is allowed to do.

Frankly, I see derelict borgs who are also free agents without objectives cause issues more frequently.

In terms of commonality. Survival moment, everything is common on Survival and that's primarily where you see them.

Skeleton could be better balanced to actually have some weakness and maybe a motivating factor but I think outright removal is kicking the can of bigger issues in regards to rules decisions down the road.

[EmoGarbage404]

I don't see the issue with having midrounds of dubious allegiance to the crew and this PR specifically mentions "derelict borgs" and "rat king" as antags who are much more interesting yet also don't have objectives.

Neither of these antags have objectives but both have factors which make them more interesting. Derelict borgs leverage arguably the only good part of borgs (ion laws) to create a thematically-strong gameplay element that can introduce some interest into around. Rat king doesn't have an explicit goal (probably to its detriment) but at least has a fairly unique and interesting collection of abilities paired with a cool theme.

Rat King specifically stands out since it is exceptionally one note compared to skeleton and often has absolutely no round impact whatsoever.

A skeleton is literally just a free respawn with no goals or implicit associations with anything else on station. What is the issue with having one singular goal and purpose to the round? Are nukies bad because they're one-note in consistently attacking the station? The theoretical impact of a literal army-raising king on the station is much more tangible and easy to realize than how to structure a random bum so that they can more positively influence the game.

Skeletons also don't cause that big of an issue admin wise from my observation, really the biggest issue I see is in regards to what are the limitations and expectations of what a free agent is allowed to do.

I think saying this is really just admitting an ignorance to how these kinds of open-ended and overly-destructive roles have shaped the game's administrative process to the core. The fact that pages have been written and continue to be written about the administrative impact and design implications of free agents--a role that was created to describe literally the type of gameplay of the closet skeleton--is a testament to the outsized burden of the role in comparison to what it actually offers the game.

Skeleton could be better balanced to actually have some weakness and maybe a motivating factor but I think outright removal is kicking the can of bigger issues in regards to rules decisions down the road.

Balance to what end? There's literally no design or motivation behind this things existence at all. I think making it weaker would arguably just make it less interesting, considering the only real interest it has is as an overpowered stomper.

What actual "rules decisions" are being kicked down the road? If it's the litigation of things like free agents, would it not be better to remove these weak gameplay elements and spare the literature debating them?

[Princess-Cheeseballs]

A skeleton is literally just a free respawn with no goals or implicit associations with anything else on station. What is the issue with having one singular goal and purpose to the round? Are nukies bad because they're one-note in consistently attacking the station? The theoretical impact of a literal army-raising king on the station is much more tangible and easy to realize than how to structure a random bum so that they can more positively influence the game.

I don't think every role needs to be predictable and I think it's sometimes fine to let go of the hand of the player and say "the world if your oyster, make of it what you will"

I think saying this is really just admitting an ignorance to how these kinds of open-ended and overly-destructive roles have shaped the game's administrative process to the core. The fact that pages have been written and continue to be written about the administrative impact and design implications of free agents--a role that was created to describe literally the type of gameplay of the closet skeleton--is a testament to the outsized burden of the role in comparison to what it actually offers the game.

I see this as more of an issue with the design of the game and how systems interact. A skeleton plasmafiring medbay is no different impact wise from a borg, a syndie, or a "DAGD" doing it.

Balance to what end? There's literally no design or motivation behind this things existence at all. I think making it weaker would arguably just make it less interesting, considering the only real interest it has is as an overpowered stomper.
We could completely remove their resistances for one. They already have a speed and healing advantage which would make them more like an assault borg in terms of gameplay effectively being a glass cannon.

And if we were to make it so wizards could spawn them we would probably want to move in this direction.

What actual "rules decisions" are being kicked down the road? If it's the litigation of things like free agents, would it not be better to remove these weak gameplay elements and spare the literature debating them?

We would need to remove borgs then because RAW they are free agents when not bound by laws. Hence, we are just kicking the can down the road as the borg free agent thing has historically caused problems and still will in the future. You could also argue that it's an issue of "role archetypes" in general considering antagonists are supposed to do bad things but this often gets enforced more harshly on some roles versus others.

[AndrewFenriz]

It’s just a free light antag with zero purpose. The whole concept has been rough around the edges since the start, so honestly, removing it isn't a huge loss

[Svetoslav228]

I think skeletons are fine, because they are adding much more unpredictable chaos to a round, so it's makes gameplay much more interesting, because it's spices up a regular boring routine and can easily become some funny shit sec off, or clown, or tider/syndie. Basically they are adding more potential chaos and fun for players, because Space station 14 as right now is just mostly a disaster simulator where unpredictable chaos happens every time, and let's be honest, department gameplay as right now is just extremely boring on itself, and only one who has something interesting is salvage but it's mostly because they have almost fully separated from station gameplay loop, so they don't have to relay on a chaos on the station. Maybe science also partially works on itself but mainly because they are the source of a half of the chaos on the station. Like security and partially med just straight forward don't work without any chaos on the station, and skeletons are providing it, and because they are free agents, it's makes them unpredictable, so every encounter with them gonna ended up different, because every player gonna play a bit different and do they're own gimmicks and ideas. Sometimes you just need to give players freedom, because it's the thing that makes game more interesting. Also for admins it's really easy role to moderate, because you just don't have anything to moderate because they can do whatever they want.

[YoungThugSS14]

I agree that the current implementation isn’t the greatest, but instead of removing one of like the three remaining ghost roles with hands, can we do something similar to what was done with dwarves and give contributors a few months to draft up a design document that implements them in a better way? I think a lot of people are tired of removals.

[OrbitSystem07]

I don't think its that good of an idea to limit the selections of midrounds and ghost roles even more then they already are. Right now, skeletons aren't actively harmful to the game (at least in my experience: I mostly play mrp servers, so i don't know how lrp skeletons tend to play out), and so I don't see a point to remove them pending rework rather then keep them until reworked

[CrackedEmerald]

the few times i played skeleton, i was under the impression they were meant to embody whatever role of the closet they spawned in. So if i spawned in an engineering closet, that would indicate i was an engineer.
Ive seen a couple of times where security preemptively arrested, or in one case, even killed the skeleton, before it was taken over by a ghost role. Skeletons are always suspicious and under surveillence of security.
I thought of maybe explicitly stating that the skeleton should take over its old job, perhaps spawn with an ID and other job acxoutrement corresponding to it.
As of now, the skeleton feels a little bare bones.

[august-sun]

I agree that the current implementation isn’t the greatest, but instead of removing one of like the three remaining ghost roles with hands, can we do something similar to what was done with dwarves and give contributors a few months to draft up a design document that implements them in a better way? I think a lot of people are tired of removals.

While I understand removals and reasoning, yeah, I have to agree here. It's a tough spot since we have a lot baking in the oven, so to speak, and still needs to materialize before there's more margin for removals.

Ideally, reworking this is just a matter of some balance changes and maybe objective assignment, but more removals now would probably go poorly.

[slarticodefast]

While I understand removals and reasoning, yeah, I have to agree here. It's a tough spot since we have a lot baking in the oven, so to speak, and still needs to materialize before there's more margin for removals.

Ideally, reworking this is just a matter of some balance changes and maybe objective assignment, but more removals now would probably go poorly.

Like I mentioned above, give me a few more hours to finish my PR and I'll turn them into wizard summons.

[LordEclipse]

Free Agents cover an otherwise glaring issue with the Crew/Antag binary that otherwise exists, (You cannot kill someone without justification/You can kill someone without justification) and (You cannot kill without justification and also must ensure that the station/crew survive to its best abilities/You can kill without justification, but must make sure that the crew suffer)

Part of the problems mentioned here however, are rather talking about how the "Skeleton Race" is "unbalanced", rather than addressing "Closet Skeleton" as a concept. You want it removed because you made it and no longer agree with the non-existing premise of it.

Rat King (I actually prefer as a Free Agent) didn't work as a Free Agent because it actually had no realistic way to assist the crew, because the rat servants basically only attack humanoids and nothing else (Though I think they also attack carps?)

[slarticodefast]

Some progress.
I'll make a PR tomorrow.

[Djungelskog2]

It shows how sad of a spot we are in that this is one of our BETTER ghost roles

[K-Dynamic]

Free Agents cover an otherwise glaring issue with the Crew/Antag binary that otherwise exists, (You cannot kill someone without justification/You can kill someone without justification) and (You cannot kill without justification and also must ensure that the station/crew survive to its best abilities/You can kill without justification, but must make sure that the crew suffer)

#43693 (comment) linking to my earlier comment, I would prefer if crew players had as much freedom as free agents. We don't have enough free agents in a round to take advantage of this dynamic, which leads to boring rounds since most crew members believe they must keep up good behaviour.

[IWearKhakis]

#43693 (comment) linking to my earlier comment, I would prefer if crew players had as much freedom as free agents. We don't have enough free agents in a round to take advantage of this dynamic, which leads to boring rounds since most crew members believe they must keep up good behaviour.

In regards to "we need more roles that are allowed to work against the crew at times", Thief is a role that seems to be done well in this regard, because it fundamentally can't murderbone people easily due to enforcement by mechanics, and its objectives are impactful enough to drive some chaos and action in a round, so is it right that future ghost roles could strive to be on its level of impact in a round and direction for how players treat the role?

Maybe the upcoming Tourist role will help bridge that gap a little, since (unless things changed or I'm getting this wrong) their objectives can involve needing to take pictures of command members or places like the Bridge, which would either need them to convince a Command member to let them in secure locations civilians typically aren't allowed in, or (assuming players use the ghost role as intended and don't use as an excuse to self-antag) break in themselves and try to explain to Security that they just want to take a photo

[ThatGuyUSA]

Like I mentioned above, give me a few more hours to finish my PR and I'll turn them into wizard summons.

hooly based i was gonna suggest this instead of flat out removal!!!!!!
YESS MORE THINGS TO THE MISFIT BASTARD CHILD ANTAG THAT IS THE WIZARD!!!

I LOVE THE WIZARD!!!!

[ThanosDeGraf]

Do you ever think EmoGarbage looks at the Skeleton like Oppenheimer looks at the atom bomb?

For better or for worse, the closet skeleton has shaped the way we think about ghost roles and their place in the game. We love the added chaos they can bring and the opportunity for a dead player to continue interacting with the round, but it has also brought a lot of adminstrative headaches and endless discussion.

I'm happy to see the skeleton being retooled into a wizard feature, and that lessons have been learned about waiting until a solution is done before removing content.

[Mehnix]

The issue seems more related to Skeletons being Free Agents with notable round influence, rather than skeletons themselves. So they sit in the grey area of both being able to do antag things or be crew aligned, and being able to switch at any time.

If Skeletons are themed as being ex-crew, they could simply be made crew-aligned in whatever role they had in life, or have a chance of having an antag objective. I don't think most players care too much about having the occasional "free respawn" ghost role, especially considering how barren the alternatives are.

[Svetoslav228]

Why do everyone talking about skeletons being a problem for an admins? Like I am admin on Ukrainian SS14 server and I don't remember anyone ever bringing up that theme about closet skeletons and free agents. Like the rules are just that you can do whatever you want, so there is no constant admin observation required. Like even I spawned several times closet skeletons on a makeshift debris that I made by just spaming maintenance room spawners, and it's ended up being pretty funny.

[slarticodefast]

and done #43714

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